Comments on Fire in the Bones [Biblical, Heterodox Christianity]: Mark 13:20 --- Salvation not about the afterlife

Yes it is about OSAS, but the point is you're ...

2009-06-16T20:16:56.085-07:00

Yes it is about OSAS, but the point is you're not saved until you actually persevere, not before.

The way I understood your main thesis in TGYNH was that classical Protestantism confused 'initial salvation' with 'final salvation.' They think that "saved" upon faith means that your ticket to Heaven is punched.

The way "And if the Lord had not cut short those days, no on ewould be saved" would be interpreted by aCatholic is that the evil in the world would get so great that it would even cause the elect to fall away (fail to persevere) if it had 'more time', but God deliberately sets a cut off point.
The way Catholicism, the Bible, and the main theme of TGYNH understands salvation is "first stage" as adoption into God's family, then "growing up" in the family (by good works, perseverance, Gal 6:7-9) and in the end receiving the Father's inheritance.

I think the "firmness" here refers to fa...

2009-06-16T17:12:59.826-07:00

I think the "firmness" here refers to faith in God, so one could simply claim that the "enduring to the end" means "Being faithful as long as one is alive" [c.f. Revelation 2:10]

It sounds like your point is more about OSAS than the definition of salvation here [though I could be wrong]. Lutherans have no problem whatsoever with the notion of true believers losing faith or their salvation.

My point is that the "saved" in Mark 13:20 is clearly not referring to anything that happens after death.

An even more powerful text is Mat 24:12f: "12...

2009-06-16T16:47:38.289-07:00

An even more powerful text is Mat 24:12f:
"12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved."

The 'classical' Protestant view cannot explain this. Here we see the love of Christians grow cold due to sin, and thus not persevere and be saved. This is impossible in the Lutheran-Calvinist view of salvation. Only true believers can have this highest form of love (agape love in Greek), which contradicts the Calvinist view especially, and the context is plainly about salvation, so there is no wiggle room about what is at stake here.