Comments on Fire in the Bones [Biblical, Heterodox Christianity]: The Gift, The Hope, and the Promised Promise

Hi David. I recently stumbled into your whoreally...

2009-04-09T04:05:00.000-07:00

Hi David. I recently stumbled into your whoreallygoestohell.com site. One thing that struck me while reading this post was your reference to the Holy Spirit as an "it" several times. John 16:7-15 tells us the Holy Spirit is a person who acts on our behalf. He conflicts the world of sin and righteousness, guides us into all truth, speaks what He hears, tells us things to come, glorifies Christ and takes what is Christ's and declares it to us.
Be blessed.

Bev,
Your comments are always welcome, no matte...

2009-03-12T10:31:00.000-07:00

Bev,
Your comments are always welcome, no matter how mish-mashed ;)

Good morning, David. Thanks for clarifying what yo...

2009-03-12T08:07:00.000-07:00

Good morning, David. Thanks for clarifying what you meant by global. Your comments on Hebrews 9:8 were very helpful. Hebrews 9:6-7 refers to the "outer" (first being more correct, as you said) tabernacle and the "second."

Verse 2 defines the outer or first tabernacle as the place containing "the lampstand and the table and the sacred bread; this is called the holy place."

Verse 3 seems to define the Holy of Holies as the "second" tabernacle:

Hebrews 9:3-Behind the second veil there was a tabernacle which is called the Holy of Holies

Verses 6 & 7 would seem to confirm that, because it says that the priest enters the second only once a year.

The NASB is very confusing in verse 8. It says, "The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way into the holy place has not yet been disclosed while the outer tabernacle is still standing"

The "holy place" would be what was defined above as the outer/first tabernacle. But I'm thinking the KJV, NIV, and others are more precise in translating that as the "holiest of all" (KJV) and "Most Holy Place" (NIV). That is the only way verse 8 makes sense.

I have to cut this short... meeting to go to. I had not considered reading Hebrews from a post-70 A.D. perspective. The NASB reads as though the temple was still standing, which would make it pre-70 A.D. The others (KJV, NIV, NKJV) read as though it could have been written post-70 A.D.

Sorry for this confusing mish-mash of comments!

Hi Bev, it's always a pleasure to have you comment...

2009-03-11T19:03:00.000-07:00

Hi Bev, it's always a pleasure to have you comment here.

Let me answer your easier question first. ;)

When I said that the "Promise" was a "global" guarantee rather than a personal one, I could see how that could be taken as hinting at Universalism. That was not my intention.

By a 'global' guarantee, I simply meant it was proof that a further transformation/salvation was in store on the other side of this life... I wasn't implying that that transformation/salvation was going to be for all people...I was just saying it was not an individual guarantee that all those with the Spirit would definitely partake of that further blessing [such a belief would go patently against a number of scriptures and cast several others as absurd: Hebrews 6:4-6, Hebrews 10:26, 2nd Peter 2:20-22, and Galatians 4:8-11 to name a few.]

Now for your more difficult question...

I think "outer tabernacle" is probably a bad translation. I believe the Greek says "first tent" or "first tabernacle." The question then is whether this "first" means "the first of the two I just mentioned" or "the earlier tabernacle (contrasted with Jesus). While it is true that the same construction "first tent" is used in 9:2 to refer to the "outer" tent, it would see consistent with the context for the "first tent" in 9:8 to refer to the whole ensemble.

...but now that I think about it, I suppose that would be an odd conclusion, since certainly the Holy Spirit was available before the Temple was destroyed in AD 70.

Hmmm...that raises some interesting considerations as to what the term must mean.

Perhaps the writer is using "the first tabernacle" in metonymy to "the first covenant." This would make a good deal of sense if Hebrews were written after 70 AD...in that case perhaps the writer was pointing at the physical destruction of the temple and indicating that the Holy Spirit had made it clear to him that the temple had to be destroyed so the Jews could stop relying or backsliding into ritual Judaism? Is this the reason for the curious "_near_ disappearing" in 8:13?

In that sense, 9:8 would somehow be in parallel with 9:16-17.

Anyways...let me know what you think... do you have some insight here?

Great post, David. I agree with your identificatio...

2009-03-11T15:46:00.000-07:00

Great post, David. I agree with your identification of all three terms. I have a couple of questions.

1. In Hebrews 9:8, what do you identify as the "outer tabernacle"?

2. When you say "the Spirit is not a personal guarantee but a global one," what do you mean by global?

Have to run for now but will check back in tomorrow. Blessings to you!

David-
That's a lot of referencing! I have a f...

2009-03-11T03:49:00.000-07:00

David-
That's a lot of referencing! I have a few theories on what you wrote but they are best relayed in an email, so perhaps I'll ship you one after I re-read your post so I'm sure i understand the whole thing. :)
Peace and Love,
Matt

Hi David. I've just been looking at your blog and ...

2009-03-10T15:36:00.000-07:00

Hi David. I've just been looking at your blog and its very interesting...I have jus recently started a blog as well christianchallenges.blogspot.com plz tll me what you think or better still make a comment on my blog.